Forget what you’ve seen in movies: BDSM isn’t one-size-fits-all. As Dr.Leann Borneman explains, it’s more of an à la carte menu where consent, communication, and personal boundaries come first. You can take what works for you and leave the rest. Host Cate Osborn talks with clinical sexologist Dr. Borneman about the intersection of BDSM, neurodivergence, and executive function. They explore how some people with ADHD use parts of BDSM, like structure, sensory input, and clearly defined roles. These can help support attention, reduce overwhelm, and build emotional regulation. Listen as Cate and Leann challenge outdated assumptions, and learn how destigmatizing your desires can help you show up more fully in your life.
Forget what you’ve seen in movies: BDSM isn’t one-size-fits-all. As Dr. Leann Borneman explains, it’s more of an à la carte menu where consent, communication, and personal boundaries come first. You can take what works for you and leave the rest.
Host Cate Osborn talks with clinical sexologist Dr. Borneman about the intersection of BDSM, neurodivergence, and executive function. They explore how some people with ADHD use parts of BDSM, like structure, sensory input, and clearly defined roles. These can help support attention, reduce overwhelm, and build emotional regulation.
Listen as Cate and Leann challenge outdated assumptions, and learn how destigmatizing your desires can help you show up more fully in your life.
Related resources
For a transcript and more resources, visit the Sorry, I Missed This show page on Understood.org. We love hearing from our listeners! Email us at sorryimissedthis@understood.org.
Timestamps
(00:00) Intro
(00:48) A comment from Cate on stigma
(02:35) BDSM as a coping strategy, not just a preference
(03:58) Society’s stigma versus the scientific research
(06:37) Pick and choose what works for you, you don’t have to label yourself
(10:53) ADHD and sexuality: Incapability versus lack of access
(13:10) What is causing this lack of access to good sex?
(17:27) Unmasking is key to authenticity and figuring out what you like
(19:11) BDSM creates space for safety through it’s collaborative and consentful nature
(21:54) Leann’s advice for those curious about BDSM and kink
(24:33) Outro and credits
Cate Osborn: Hi everybody, and welcome back to "Sorry I Missed This," the show where we talk about all things ADHD, intimacy, communication, relationships, and sex. It's me, your host, Cate Osborn, and today I am so excited that we have Dr. Leann Borneman on, who is doing fabulous and amazing work in the relationship between ADHD and kink.
In fact, she just published her dissertation, which is on ADHD, women, and kink, and BDSM, and how BDSM can support women with ADHD. And I know that if you know anything about me and anything about my work, you know that this is directly in the lane of my special interest. And so I am really excited to bring you to this conversation.
Cate Osborn: Before we start, I do wanna say a few things. I know that hearing the words kink and BDSM for some people can be a pearl-grasping, salacious thing. But particularly I think you're gonna see in the context of this episode, it's really not. There is so much about BDSM and kink that is stigmatized. And you're gonna hear Leanne and I talk about this a little bit in the episode.
But I wanna be very clear that when I'm talking about BDSM, when I'm talking about kink, I'm not talking about the traditional things that you might think, you might picture, when those words come up. What I'm talking about is a mutually respectful, mutually agreed upon, mutually communicated set of clear and distinguished rules, accoutrement, tasks, activities, however you wanna sort of imagine it.
And one of the things that I'm so curious about is the fact that when we talk about ADHD, if you know one person with ADHD, you know, one person with ADHD, and if you know one kinkster, you know, one kinkster, and their likes, their dislikes, their needs, their executive functioning differences might be very, very different depending on the individual.
And the beautiful and fascinating, and I think often under-discussed component of kink and BDSM is that it is infinitely customizable. It is not just the whips and the chains and the leather and the spanking. That's cool if that's what you're into. But in this episode, we're gonna really look past those sort of stigmatized conversations. And we're gonna talk about the why.
Why might this be helpful? What can these ideas provide for women with ADHD, especially if you are struggling with low desire, especially if you are struggling with feeling like sex is just another task that you have to undertake during your day. So without any further ado, let's start the show.
Cate Osborn: So, Leann, I'm a huge fan of your work. You're literally looking at my favorite special interest topic, which is ADHD and kink and BDSM, and how they overlap and how they work together. And so in your study in particular, you talk a lot about how BDSM might not just serve as like a sexual preference, but as an intentional adaptive strategy for managing things like attention and executive function, even emotional regulation. Can you talk a little bit more about that please?
Dr. Leann Borneman: Yeah, of course. So when we think of BDSM and kink in general, it usually is described as just like a sexual preference. And so we just gravitate towards that. Like, ooh, I'm interested in this.
But like, when you really take a step back, psychologically speaking, every behavior has a reason. And so for me, in my lens, I was always the, well, why. There has to be something more than just, it's a sexual preference. Like where is the reason for it to be a preference. And, you know, sometimes the things that we want aren't the things that we want just because it's a preference. It's because it's survival. And so why would kink and BDSM be any different?
And when I was working with tons of clients who were talking to me about their dissatisfaction without it versus their satisfaction with it, I started recognizing that survival adaptive piece and why I leaned into that for my dissertation.
Cate Osborn: It's super interesting that you say that because one of the things that I'm really interested in is how so often BDSM and kink are sort of presented as this salacious, perverted, only weirdos, and, you know, traumatized people enjoy this activity. But what does your research show about the people who are enjoying kink and BDSM, are utilizing it as a tool in the bedroom?
Dr. Leann Borneman: So I think you also point to a really important distinction here. That idea that kink and BDSM is weird or pathologized or "Ooh, there must be something wrong with you," that is societal. Like, society sucks when it comes to messages, when we're looking at engagement. The research, it shows something completely separate.
The research shows individuals who partake in BDSM and kink, they're actually having better forms of communication. They have better mental health outcomes. They are experiencing satisfaction across the board in ways that non-BDSM and kink engaging individuals are. And so my research just kind of focused on what are you getting from BDSM in terms of how you're experiencing your ADHD.
And a lot of the individuals that partook in this study, I can only assume some were individuals who are still dealing with the shame associated with even enjoying it and/or engaging in kink and BDSM. And then you had the other people that I'm sure were very empowered and were like, "Yes! Finally! I can speak my truth and I love this," right? But when it comes to the science, the science totally discredits everything society likes to say and spew about BDSM and kink.
Cate Osborn: Why do you think that is? Why do you think that there's such a disconnect?
Dr. Leann Borneman: Well, I also am a human sexuality professor, and so we talk a lot about the narratives and the messages and the scripts that we are given in our day-to-day from a variety of different sources. And unfortunately, sexuality across the board is not looked at with an objective lens.
Because it is attached to religion, it's attached to the concept of purity. For some, it's attached to what you are supposed to be doing or what is right versus wrong. Has nothing to do with the science. And when you look at systems, even like public schools and law, and politics, nothing is objective. It usually comes from a space of emotions and trying to protect and create continuation around like taboo topics and leaving them to be taboo.
Cate Osborn: Something that I'm curious about, and this is something that I've struggled with in my own work, in the research that I've done, so maybe we can chat this out together.
Let's say I am an ADHDer, and I also realize that I am into sensory experiences that are, you know, like a heavy massage. Like a hard massage. A massage that borders on painful, right? The tenets of BDSM, right? The tenets of kink are like, we're communicating, we're talking about it, we're specifically negotiating it. We're exploring sensory play in a way that is maybe less traditional than the standard, you know, heterosexual intimacy script.
What is the line. do you think, between, I am engaging in BDSM and I'm swapping out the wimpy half-assed back rub for a back rub that is actually going to do it for me before I engage in intimacy with my partner. Like at what point does it become BDSM, and at what point is it just we're adapting, we're customizing our adventure in order to support our sensory needs? Because I have an incredibly hot take about this, but I wanna hear yours.
Dr. Leann Borneman: I think that's actually a really cool question because a lot of the times, individuals that come to therapy — and we're talking about this type of exploration, some are very scared because they can't see themselves interested in everything that they have learned BDSM to be.
And so I like to remind people: Intense sensations and seeking that stimulation isn't you identifying as somebody in the BDSM realm. However, when you think about it, take scene creation. That is a very big anchored point in any type of kink and BDSM, and we like to apply that. We should be applying that part of BDSM to all of our engagements.
I like to call BDSM the possibility of an à la carte service. You don't have to necessarily call it BDSM. For instance, you can be considered kinky by you just liking to have your ass smacked. But like kinky to somebody else can be something completely different.
And so to answer your question, I stay away from labels of, is it this, is it that, and I focus more on is it safe, is it consensual? Are you using the proper approaches that keeps this healthy and safe for all and yourself? Or are we going into territory that's unhealthy?
And again, I use it as an à la carte service. What do you like? Pick it and grab it. You don't have to just take the whole cart.
Cate Osborn: Exactly. My hot take is that I think the only nuance of it is that if you want to learn more about things like sensory play or different ways of integrating executive functioning support or, you know, different scene styles, that kind of stuff is you have to look up BDSM on the internet. That's the only thing.
If you don't wanna identify as a kinkster, nobody is going to make you go to the conventions, you know, nobody is going to show up at your house and be like, "Well actually you do have to wear the collar for this to be legal." You know what I mean? But because the conversation has become so stigmatized, because the conversation has been so pathologized, you have to just know the sort of like keywords to search in order to support whatever kind of intimacy that you're trying to have. And that bothers me.
And I think one of the more interesting things, the sort of parallel that my brain is making right now, is that a lot of the conversation in the work and the study that you've been doing is guided by that sort of notion of critical disability theory. Where, how are we talking about ADHD? How are we talking about neurodivergency? Is it a disability or is it a neurotype that just will thrive in a structure that is different and counterintuitive to the culture that we're currently living and existing in?
And I know that for so many kids, especially like thinking about the public school system, like that kind of thing, like those are environments where it's very difficult to find co-regulation. And so you grow up not knowing how to achieve that. And then it's like, well, I need something to help me. And then it's like, well, BDSM, like just, it's right there. It's just right over there.
And then adults like find their way to it and they're like, wow, this really works for me and this really makes my life easier and my ADHD easier to function. And then people are like, well, it's weird that you like that though. And I'm like, come on.
Dr. Leann Borneman: When we are looking at ADHD in regards to executive function and deficits — and I know some people don't like me using the word "deficit" because it kind of goes against the grain of neuro-affirming care. But when I'm using it, I'm using it clinically for a reason. Because at the end of the day, bringing back critical disability theory, I wholeheartedly agree. I agree that disability is a con, a social construct, right?
If we had spaces and environments that supported how our brains operate and are wired, we wouldn't necessarily have so many struggles, but guess what? You're not erasing the neurotypical world. That's the reality. It sucks. So that's why I use deficit 'cause we can't ignore the fact, the objectivity of it.
That doesn't mean you're broken. That doesn't mean you're weak. It doesn't mean that you can't learn how to use your brain in a strength way. But ignoring fact of where we are in our lives, I don't think is fair.
Cate Osborn: There's even another way that this kind of shows up in the work that you're doing is framing the conversation around like sexual dysfunction. Does ADHD cause sexual dysfunction? What is a dysfunction versus a sort of — I don't know. How would you say it Leann?
Dr. Leann Borneman: I'm getting excited. You're getting me excited 'cause I feel like I know exactly where you're going or I'm gonna go somewhere with it.
Cate Osborn: Yeah. Fill — like, here, here. Ball toss. Here you go.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Yay. I'm here. So when, when I was doing my dissertation, the first part of it was I had to look at the research. And I was getting so freaking frustrated. When it came to like ADHD and sexuality, all I kept finding was what we suck in. We suck at conflict resolution. We have higher levels of divorce rates. We are struggling to feel satisfied sexually. We are struggling to obtain orgasms.
I'm like, OK, but like, is ADHD really necessarily the cause of this? Or is it the environments we're trying to gain pleasure in the cause of it? It's the access. And I tell this to my clients all the time: It's not about being incapable most of the time. It's about what is stopping your access?
Cate Osborn: Well, what do you find are the things that are stopping that access to pleasure, to intimacy, that kind of stuff?
Dr. Leann Borneman: Now, I think for me to answer you, I have to give the caveat that it's gonna be individualized. Like ADHD is not in a vacuum, right? It's on a spectrum. But some of the things that I generally see repetitively are definitely a stimulation mismatch. What are you needing, stimulation wise, sensory-related issues? You know, what are the five senses and how are they affecting how you're showing up?
And then another one is the concept and idea of the fact that, and you've said this too, sex is a task. We suck at task initiation. And so like the biggest barrier, and here's where I'm gonna throw this weird concept out, is that when we think of a lot of individuals who are struggling to show up sexually — at least for all the people that I've worked with, my own personal life — I'm not like missing desire. Like I wanna have sex with my husband. I think he's sexy. He's like a Thor, but like a dad-bod Thor. He has the hair.
Cate Osborn: My husband too! He's straight up Ben cast as an extra in like Thor movies. That's a true story. He's in the Marvel universe. Anyway, sorry. Continue.
Dr. Leann Borneman: No, you're fine. That's totally sexy. Of course, I want that. But the problem isn't that I don't want it. It's that I'm freezing. Why am I freezing? And like this is where the literature kind of stopped being supportive. Because like in one light I was like, OK, well maybe this is like a responsive desire type of vibe here. Like I just have to get into it.
That's what they say, right? Like, maybe you're not spontaneous. Maybe you just need to get into it and feel it and then you'll respond to it. And I started up trying to apply that and my clients also, and it's like, well, something still wasn't working. Guess what? You can't become responsive if your executive functioning deficits are still causing you a barrier.
Cate Osborn: Wow. Tell me more about that.
Dr. Leann Borneman: To show up, we need to — and this is where my mantra comes in — set our environments, relationship, and sex up for success in a way that works with our brains and not against it.
Cate Osborn: One of the other things that I see a lot in my work is there's also a lack of play. We have the lack of play, a lack of letting ourselves be vulnerable and sort of accessing that inner, what do I want right now? You know, what do I actually need and what does that feel like? Because we're living in a world in which our executive functioning is being barraged by all of the other stuff that we have.
And so it's like I don't have time to explore. I don't have time to figure out like what kind of touch feels good? What kind of touch feels bad? What do I like? How do I like it? And so for a lot of the work that I see is really starting there of the intentionality of just saying, "I might not like this, I might like this, but either way, like we're gonna, we're gonna figure it out together."
Dr. Leann Borneman: I think you hit a nail on the head in regards to approaches that can really help us. We have to also then get out of the expectation attached to when we're being intimate it has to lead to something like sex.
Cate Osborn: The orgasm goalpost.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Exactly. Sometimes it's just you using that space to explore. Because like you said, intentionality is so important, but it's hard for us ADHDers to show up and be present as it's happening.
So a lot of like my clients for instance, they're not able to understand what's going on in the moment because of that disconnect in terms of their self-awareness. And so I always lean in and I said, our strength is post- or pre-reflection.
And when you can identify and see that play or being curious is actually OK, and you give yourself permission to do that, you're then giving yourself permission to start asking yourself like, "What is it I actually want? What is it I like?" And so like something I do for my clients is I create like a little menu of questions, reflective questions. I actually just popped it up for sale on my website for like something cheap because it's like, it's so helpful and it's ADHD-friendly. And it's also inviting you to be intimate and explore without this goal of orgasm.
Cate Osborn: So one of the other things that I wanted to ask is, and this is maybe delving a little bit into the ADHD and autism combo platter. So this is for my combo platter girlies. But do you see places where like delayed emotional processing is also coming into play in terms of processing intimacy, relationships, that kind of stuff?
Dr. Leann Borneman: A hundred percent. And that comes from the delay in processing, but also the self-awareness of in the moment. And I'm gonna give another layer here: If individuals are trying to engage and they're still masking? Masking is the biggest barrier to authenticity in terms of pleasure and play. And so if you're still showing up for survival reasons instead of curiosity and you feel safe to do so, that too is gonna cause a lot of disconnect.
And this is another reason why then trial and error here is very important, especially if you are safe mentally and you can feel comfortable to do it. Doing the thing and then having conversations afterwards. Having conversations before, checking in with yourselves, being intentional about where you're at, having prompted questions by somebody, whatever it may look like, going on your page and going through a guide.
Having those conversations are important because that's what allows us to be more mindful in a way that works with our brains.
Cate Osborn: One of the things that you talked about specifically was the idea of agency and self-confidence, and how kink and BDSM can help women. And so to me that's a really beautiful parallel. You do I think, need confidence to unmask. You do need courage and vulnerability and preexisting intimacy, I think, to feel safe enough. So how does BDSM, how does kink help us in those areas? What do you see in your research?
Dr. Leann Borneman: For what I see with my clients and in what I found with the research, it creates space for safety through the different types of ways we're navigating our interaction.
So like you've talked about it too, the structure, the communication, the scene creation, really checking in with one another, being intentional. Feeling empowered that you even have a platform to speak. Normalizing that, right? Like when you think of just typical sex, and I'm specifically also now talking about more heterosexual sex. there's a script that you already know and you show up and you follow. Like communication generally is not part of that and you're not generally changing it.
With BDSM, the skies are the limits and any day can be something different and you get to explore. And I also love, I've never played Dungeons and Dragons and I'm really dying to, 'cause I think I'd really love it.
Cate Osborn: All right, girl. I got you. I got you.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Yeah. Well, BDSM is like Dungeons and Dragons in my mind. You're creating a scene. You're creating a script. You're getting to navigate it. You're getting to role play, you're getting to feel it. You're getting to stop and pause. You get to feel what you want, and every single time it's different.
Cate Osborn: There's a reason why my job is split 50-50 down the middle between sex and intimacy and TTRPGs, and you have hit it precisely on the head. Literally the joke that I came up with six years ago at a convention, and I use it every single time because it's the best joke I've ever written is like, yeah, I talk about sex and intimacy. I also work in TTRPGs. You might say that I work in both type of dungeons.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Look at you.
Cate Osborn: But like seriously, like that is, it's exactly it. It is just gamifying sex. It's gamifying intimacy in a way that allows for specific and direct communication, negotiation. And even if you aren't a person who wants to have the communication and negotiating happening in scene, which is a totally valid way of doing it, then you're just pre-planning your adventure.
You're just following the one shot. You're sitting down and you're saying, OK, here's the point of the adventure that we're going to hit. And then, you know, along the way, if anything comes up, then like we might pause, we might reassess. But there's, so, there's so, oh my God. I'm sorry we can't make this a Dungeons of Dragons podcast. We just can't.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Well, what you're talking about, the crux of it, is collaboration.
Cate Osborn: It's collaborative intimacy, collaborative storytelling. And you know what? I am a huge advocate of adding a D 20 to your toolbox in the bedroom too. Because let me tell you of, the number of people have been like, you know, you can just roll for that. And I was like yes, you can.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Yeah. That's also fun. It takes the pressure off of the mind to try and organize and plan when you're using your environment to create those options for you.
Cate Osborn: If somebody is listening to this podcast, they're an ADHD lady who's curious about kink, who's curious about BDSM, what advice would you give them for starting that journey safely and confidently?
Dr. Leann Borneman: The first thing that I would do is definitely reach out to any type of book or resource that you can use to better understand what it is. And when I say book and resource, I specifically like to say you wanna find things that are written in the scientific tone. Not suggestive, not like subjective. It really needs to be linked to the science, 'cause like we talked about before, the science supports this type of dynamic being actually very healthy, versus negative, like society likes to say, that's number one.
Number two, if you're somebody that has ADHD, I always suggest being very knowledgeable and learning about executive functioning. So many of us get our diagnosis and like no one really tells us about executive functioning. And so I always like to tell people, like, definitely go to like somebody like Dr. Russell Barkley, who just makes it so awesome and easy and accessible to learn more about that.
And then once you have that down pat, really start asking yourself, do you experience any sensory issues? Are there certain smells, tastes, sights, sounds like for me, silence is very overstimulating to me. And for a lot of clients it smells, it sounds even, et cetera, whatever.
Really map those things out and then start to have conversations. Don't feel like there is the right path for people when you're trying to explore BDSM and kink, other than becoming informed of how you're showing up, where are your insecurities if you have any.
You know, it is also really important to work with a professional, especially if there's any trauma history there. Because you don't wanna just dive into any type of interactions without really understanding all the quote layers that are within your story and how you're showing up or trying to show up.
And with my clients, I always focus on executive functioning and really mapping that out and asking like, how is that possibly coming up as a barrier? And is it really a barrier because it's executive functioning or is it a barrier because you're trying to show up in a space that doesn't support how your brain is wired?
Cate Osborn: Dr. Leann Borneman, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for this fabulous conversation. I love talking ADHD and BDSM. It is one of my favorite topics in the world. And just thank you so much for the work that you're doing. You are making it so accessible and so de-stigmatized, and I just, I'm a huge fan of you and your work. And so thank you for taking time out of your day to be here.
Dr. Leann Borneman: Thank you so much for having me.
Cate Osborn: Anything mentioned in the episode will be linked in the show notes with more resources. Have a question, comment, burning story you'd like to share? Email us at SorryIMissedThis@understood.org.
This show is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.
"Sorry, I Missed This" is produced and edited by Jessamine Molli and Margie DeSantis. Samiah Adams is our supervising producer. Video is produced by Calvin Knie and edited by Jessie DiMartino. Our theme music was written by Justin D. Wright, who also mixes the show. Briana Berry is our production director. Neil Drumming is our editorial director. For Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, Seth Melnick, and Jordan Davidson. And I'm your host, Cate Osborn. Thank you so much for listening.
My brain just like galaxy-brained off into like, and now we're just gonna talk about Dungeons and Dragons for the rest of the time.